North Carolina has deep, pre-revolutionary hemp industry's roots. Founders Hemp draws from the state's historic hemp heritage to lead it's reemergence as our country's leading hemp producer. Bob Crumley joins Joy Beckerman to talk about their transparent, vertically integrated hemp company. He shares interesting insight into overcoming many of the industry's challenges. Produced by PodCONX https://podconx.com/guests/bob-crumley
North Carolina has deep, pre-revolutionary hemp industry's roots. Founders Hemp draws from the state's historic hemp heritage to lead it's reemergence as our country's leading hemp producer. Bob Crumley joins Joy Beckerman to talk about their transparent, vertically integrated hemp company. He shares interesting insight into overcoming many of the industry's challenges.
https://podconx.com/guests/bob-crumley
Dan Humiston: [00:00:07] Welcome to another episode of Hemp Barons. I'm Dan Humiston in today's Hemp Barons, an attorney by trade and an entrepreneur by birth has been the driving force behind North Carolina's emergence back into Hemp industry. Building off the state's rich Hemp heritage, his vertically integrated Hemp company is leading the state by example out of prohibition. Let's join Joy's conversation with Bob Crumbly from founders Hemp.
Joy Beckerman: [00:00:39] Well, Bob, thank you so much for being with us on Hemp Barons today.
Bob Crumley: [00:00:45] Thank you, Joy, for having me.
Joy Beckerman: [00:00:46] I appreciate it. Oh, it's so great to have a hero among this. I don't know. If you recall, I met you and your beautiful wife at an Hemp Industries Association conference some time ago at the back of a bus during a farm tour. I think I was with Andrea Herman and Jace Calloway and his wife, Anita Hemp from Shinola. Do you remember that?
Bob Crumley: [00:01:06] I do remember that trip. That was a that was a lot of fun. A lot of fun. So much fun.
Joy Beckerman: [00:01:13] And you had the moving and shaking and leading the way in the nation and most certainly in North Carolina since then. And I first, before we get into founders Hemp, which is has many brands here, everything from grain extracts your innovative agro products, which I think is fantastic. And the services that you provide, you know, the activism, really, you are such there's no real getting into Hemp and being a leader in the Hemp industry unless you're going to be an advocate, they go hand in hand. So by default, they're advocates that you by trade before getting into Hemp. You're an attorney, am I right?
Bob Crumley: [00:01:52] Yes. I still am a lawyer or a lawyer by training an entrepreneur by birth. But I practice a law firm for a number of years before before I got into the Hemp industry.
Joy Beckerman: [00:02:05] And boy, does that TSA for the Hemp revolution. You know, I was raised by an attorney who worked with attorneys most of my adult life in Hemp and in compliance and complex civil litigation. And you have used your lawyering skills to such a fantastic degree on behalf of the Hemp plant. And let me ask you this before the 2018 farm bill, when, of course, thank goodness we got the words, including the seeds there of included in the definition of Hemp. And as you were very familiar in the Consolidated Appropriations Act a couple of years ago, we were also able to get the seeds of Hemp at least protected from the use of federal funds, the Department of Justice funds that you said had a situation where you were trying to get under the 2014 farm, those seeds or extract sent from Kentucky to North Carolina.
Joy Beckerman: [00:03:03] And tell us a little bit about what happened as you tried to get those seeds again. This is a few years back, that or 2017. Tell us a little bit about that story, Bob.
Bob Crumley: [00:03:12] Well, we were interested in not just seeds, but we're also interested in large plants or as are in our industry. We call them clones, of course. And so we were looking at getting that because we needed to plant. And the DEA was giving North Carolina a hard time as they gave a lot of states a hard time. We had tried multiple meetings to get multiple meetings with them and just were not successful. And so I went to the North Carolina Industrial Hemp Commission, which is the ruling regulatory body. And I suggested that they join me and my company in a lawsuit against the DEA for the D.A. s position, and they voted to join us in the lawsuit. But before that lawsuit could get filed, the attorney general of North Carolina issued an opinion or one of their associate attorneys actually issued the opinion that gave us said that we had the right to take product across state lines. We could haul like plants, seeds across state lines that the farm bill specifically allowed that to happen. And with that in our hand, within 24 hours of that, getting that document in our hand, we actually shipped about 4000 log plants from Kentucky to North Carolina. We shipped seeds from from Colorado into North Carolina. And we actually invited the media to come out. We didn't try to hide from anybody. We invited the media to come out and actually had live media there when the truck arrived with it. Although I will tell you a funny story. It took the driver a whole lot longer to get back than it took him to get out there. And I said, how come it took you so much longer to get back? You said, because with with a truck full of Hemp, I drove 55 miles an hour coming back. I didn't speed at all.
Joy Beckerman: [00:04:56] So we get to better believe it. Yeah. So it will slide.
Bob Crumley: [00:05:05] It was a tough time.
Bob Crumley: [00:05:06] I mean, with the with the DEA and but now, of course, the 2018 farm bill makes it very clear the DEA is not in our wheelhouse anymore. The North Carolina excuse me, the USDA and FDA, of course, then the North Carolina Department bag as well. They are the regulatory bodies, not the DEA.
Joy Beckerman: [00:05:24] Indeed. No, they are they are in our rear view mirror, as I love this day. And and as I warned everybody or at least tried to inform everybody, as soon as we get rid of the DEA, the FDA will be sitting there waiting for us and they are in and we won't spend too much time in this show talking about.
Joy Beckerman: [00:05:42] Of course, they they claim to be working diligently on trying to create a regulatory framework for Hemp extracts as supplements and is to be added in food and beverages.
Joy Beckerman: [00:05:54] And that's a pretty good segway into founders Hemp. So when did founders have come along? When did you decide you found, as it were, founders Hemp?
Bob Crumley: [00:06:07] Yeah. We actually set the company up. Golly. I think as in 2015 before the statute in North Carolina passed and we obviously at that point in time, the banks were really skittish. So actually the corporate name of our company was Innovative Business Growth LLC, because my banker told me if they had to work Hemp in it, he couldn't open up an account. So we opened up the account. His innovative Business Growth LLC were DPA founder. But since then, of course, that's not an issue. Of course, we've got pool banking here in North Carolina. And I'm very, very happy about that. But we decided to stand up the company and we knew that we had to be vertically integrated simply because there is no commodity supply of Hemp out there. And we wanted to be able to make sure that our customers had the genetics that we wanted them to have as opposed to just buying anything off the street, as it were. And so we started out with growing our own Hemp and processing it. And of course, in retail or wholesale sales all the way to the retail stores.
Joy Beckerman: [00:07:17] No. Fantastic and is a super quick aside because there's so much that we like to inform our listeners of when you say you have banking in North Carolina.
Joy Beckerman: [00:07:27] Do you mean you also have a account services in Indiana or Carolina? What the heck?
Bob Crumley: [00:07:34] We were the first Hemp company in the United States, to my knowledge, to have a Tier 1 bank credit card processing. And we also have lines of credit with tier one level banks in the United States. And so I think you know it. I think there've been a couple of problems, obviously, with with the Hemp industry and CRA and merchant processing. Some of it, quite frankly, has been self-inflicted. There were a lot of people out there doing some some crazy things. And it made banks and the credit card processors very nervous. Some of the folks that were involved early on in our industry may have come directly out of the marijuana industry. And there were a lot of banks that were concerned that they may it may have Hemp in the name, but they would be selling marijuana out the back door. And and the banks were just afraid of that. They were afraid of inadvertently violating the BSA or the money laundering issues. And and I think that played a big role with our company, because my first job at law school, I was in-house counsel for a bank, actually a savings and loan. And people in the industry have known me. They know my career path. And I think that helped us in large part. But yeah, we have we have wholesale credit card processing, we have retail credit card processing and we have online credit card processing with a Tier 1 bank.
Joy Beckerman: [00:08:58] Indeed.
Joy Beckerman: [00:09:00] And for what it's worth, you know, really, because we're so engrossed, Hemp Industries Association and for many other reasons, I have to be so engrossed in what's happening with merchant account processing. And the reality is, as you well know, was on when they saw the writing on the wall that the that the farm bill was going to be passed. They got in around November or so and everyone's got real excited. They started opening up accounts which account processing can be like like any industry can be a dirty business if there's affiliates within affiliates, as you know, selling these selling these things. And I think also what happened is some of the merchant account sellers themselves who, of course, want the commissions from the transaction fees, also had a had a part to play in what happened to Hemp and that they may have brought it on themselves. More so than Hemp, there's I I would be more inclined, you know, even even to say that by getting in some of these medical and adult use Cannabis and certainly they should have access as well within their own legal status. But I think a lot some of them in. And MasterCard found out about it, threatened Delavan. And I don't have to tell you the rest.
Bob Crumley: [00:10:11] I think that that's industry self-inflicted. That's what I reported that night. Not that it's just Hemp. Yes.
Bob Crumley: [00:10:18] Doing it. But again, it's some of these folks that were doing the ISOs or the companies that sale credit card merchant processing. And they were just they were doing the wrong thing and they would make a bank nervous. When you when a bank is sitting there and I'm not I'm not taking this inside of the banks, don't get me wrong. But you've got to at least recognize their dilemma, because if they're sitting there inadvertently processing an illegal controlled substance, then they are they could be accused by the federal government of money laundering. And that's a very bad thing for a bank. So we've we've got a police guarding industry. We've got to police our own industry. We've got to police the people who provide services to our industry. And if we don't, then companies like Taliban and other companies will flee because they're afraid and rightfully so.
Bob Crumley: [00:11:04] And so I think that as our industry becomes more professional as people I've been working on a speech that I've been asked to give and the title of my speech is going to be The Laws of business apply to Cannabis.
Joy Beckerman: [00:11:20] There's a lot of people that get into the Cannabis God and God bless you, Bob. That's perfect. God bless.
Bob Crumley: [00:11:28] They think they think that the laws of business don't apply to Cannabis. And I'm not just talking about laws. I'm not talking about statutes. I'm talking about things such as cash flying or small business is more important than business practice. I mean, I'm seeing him companies that are year end to being a Hemp company and they don't have a set of books or they don't keep their books up or I mean, just stuff that is common sense business, which is why I am. And sometimes in our industry we think the laws of business don't apply to us.
Bob Crumley: [00:12:00] We've got a product that is so wonderful that the laws of business don't apply. Look, they apply not only do they, you know, they should apply.
Joy Beckerman: [00:12:10] Absolutely, and I had also I've and I don't know if that's because we're coming from hysterical prohibition.
Joy Beckerman: [00:12:18] Do you think some some unrealistic type of utopia or what's going on? But I find it even even critical thinking has seems to come off when it comes to him.
Joy Beckerman: [00:12:29] So you'll be talking to even a critical thinker. And all of a sudden when it comes to Hemp or Hemp product, whether it's textiles or even paper, all of a sudden stop asking critical questions.
Joy Beckerman: [00:12:39] Like what? Give you a great. Nothing happened. Let me use it once again, Michael. One, this textile. Go ahead.
Bob Crumley: [00:12:46] Let me give you a great example. I have trained bon banks in North Carolina when I was a national bank. I've trained Bob Banks, their compliance officers and stuff on Hemp and Cannabis to help them get ready for Cannabis customers. So occasionally they will call me when they've got a deal presented to them. They don't tell me the company name. They don't tell me to state that it's and they just say we've got this kind of structure being presented to us. What do you think? My favorite one recently was a group that wanted to build a processing facility that had the ability to process ten thousand pounds a day. And and so I said to the banker, I said, let's just do the rough math. If you do the rough math and if if they were all Hemp, it's costing them, let's just say market rate these days about thirty dollars. Thirty five dollars a pound. So let's just say conservatively 30 dollars a pound and they're processing ten thousand pounds a day as it dies. The banker said, does this company have the capacity to handle three hundred thousand dollars a day?
Bob Crumley: [00:13:49] Cash flow.
Bob Crumley: [00:13:51] Before they even think about all their extraction, chemicals or other costs, I mean, it's like it's like some people in the Hemp industry have eaten. I think they watch that movie about the baseball field. You know, if you build it, they will come. Yeah, it seems to me, I think, well, some people in the Hemp industry have taken the idea. If I build an extraction facility that will produce and can process ten thousand pounds a day, by golly, I'll be able to sell ten thousand pounds back. And my response is not necessarily. And so it is just getting these folks need to take a step back. What was it? A former Fed chairman called it irrational exuberance. Take a step back from the irrational exuberance and realize this needs to be a sustainable industry, a sustainable business. We owe that to our customers. We owe this to the people who have maladies that our product is good for. And and we need to approach it that way and approach it business like. And I think we do that at Founders Hemp. And I think quite frankly, it's one of the reasons why national banks have taken responded to us when we asked for lines of credit or processing or whatever the case may be. So I would encourage no Dena.. I would encourage people in our industry pay attention to the business aspects of your business, not just the floral aspects of your business, not just about the creative aspects of the business, but about the business aspects of the business as well.
Joy Beckerman: [00:15:25] Absolutely. And no doubt, as you well know, most small businesses fail. Whether you're just selling a widget and we're not in a widget revolution here. We're in an industrial agricultural public health revolution with a plant that has been demonized and we've been socially engineered. So if you're going to have trouble surviving as a small business owner operator selling widgets.
Joy Beckerman: [00:15:52] Believe me, you're gonna have trouble in Hemp if you get on a lying. The best business practices, right.
Bob Crumley: [00:16:02] Breaking the stigma is something that we need to do. And I can't tell you the number of people that I've seen, people in their 40s, 50s, 60s. They come to the door of our retail store. They put a hand on the door. And then they look both ways as if they're trying to see if anybody's watching them go in. They still got that little stigma now after they come into our store and they realize it's not a bad place, it's a healthy place. They lose that stigma, but it's one customer to customers at a time. If as an industry, we feed the stigma, I mean, I've seen some ads by some of our competitors, they cuddle right up against the marijuana and they they they cuddle up against the illegal aspect of it. And I don't think that's good for the industry because we need to be about breaking that stigma, not embracing that, since.
Joy Beckerman: [00:16:52] It's such a it's such a fantastic gauntlet to to navigate here.
Joy Beckerman: [00:16:59] And and you do such a great job of it. I've found founders 10th and talk a little bit about what founders does in vertically integrated. Are the brands that are on your Web site all owned and there are some beautiful ones. Historically healthy historical remedy Hemp symmetry. How would Hemp innovative Agrium products and Hemp excellent. Are those are all brands that are owned by founders?
Bob Crumley: [00:17:27] Yes, they're all our brands. We decided early on not to have a monolithic marketing plan, but rather, as you can see, by having different products. Each one of those products is goes to a segment of the market. And so we've just that's the decision we make. There are people out there in the industry who decided to have a monolithic brand and they'll put the same brand in a convenience store or a doctor's office. And we don't do that. And so we've segmented brands out based on market.
Joy Beckerman: [00:17:55] He got it and some of it with innovative agro products. That is the arm of the company that sells it looks like it may be ingredients, suppliers as well as genetic and provide services.
Bob Crumley: [00:18:10] Right. That is our farming entity and also our extraction entity. It sells clones and seedlings to farmers. It also buys here. It extracts Hemp and its biggest customer is Founders Hemp, but its biggest customer is not going to be founders Hemp probably about the end of this year or for sure not next year. We've got some fairly big contracts with the national companies that we will be selling raw oil into them for food. Either we will provide them a product, they'll do bottling. In some cases we do bottling for them. White label bottling. So but that particular company, Innovative Agro Products, does that. It also is very active in the smoke label Hemp Arena. And we have our own brand of smoke, perhaps free rolls that we sell in our stores, but also into wholesale customers, tobacco shops, other kind of shops, vape shops, whatever.
Joy Beckerman: [00:19:12] No outstanding and and get founder stamp for your growth, do you folks, employee and regenerative agricultural techniques or what its founders sort of philosophy around agriculture and soil in terms of field selection and the way that you find the plant?
Bob Crumley: [00:19:31] Well, one of the things that we make sure that we do with our farmers.
Bob Crumley: [00:19:34] We know that this plant is an uptake plant, meaning that if there's heavy metals in the soil, that it will it cannot take those heavy metals. And so we always like to have our farmers do heavy metal testing on their fields. And if we have a field, you know, I mean, heavy metals in and of themselves are not bad. Right. They serve useful purposes in the right amounts. But when you are beginning to extract and that there's heavy metals in the plant and then you extract it, you can get higher levels of heavy metals. And that may not be a good thing. And so we we work with our farmers to test the fields, not just for P.H. and in what fertilizers may be needed, but also heavy metals. And so we're very careful with that in that regard. We also then test the flour when it comes from farmer's field to make sure that that we have not had an excess uptake of heavy metals or pesticides or herbicides. Of course, not yet being permitted on those yet. So we have we have a very stringent. We are the first Hemp company east of the Mississippi River to be GMP certified. And so we we have decided as a company that we are on the high quality side of this market.
Bob Crumley: [00:20:49] We're not trying to be the low cost, cheap provider. We don't buy foreign isolate or foreign products and mix it with American products.
Bob Crumley: [00:20:58] All of our products are grown in the United States process in the United States. And so we made a very early commitment in founders that we were going to be on the upper end of quality. Hence our push to become the first GMP certified and we're well on our way to being ISO certified. We think perhaps by the end of the year.
Joy Beckerman: [00:21:19] And when you say GMP certified, did you did you have a third party verify you come in, because that is you know, that is where is that for CBD right now? So fantastic. And that's.
Bob Crumley: [00:21:31] I mean. Go ahead. Yes.
Bob Crumley: [00:21:34] We had a third party, one of the one of the testing companies that, you know, came in and we actually had a pre audit done by another company. And then we the auditing company comes in for the full GMP audit and we were audited under the nutritional supplement standard. So there's a real interesting issue going on out there. There's different obviously different levels of GMP depending on where you item. And we chose to go with the more more difficult nutritional supplement, brand or level. And so we're in fact, certified GMP is really interesting. I was speaking on a panel at New Orleans Hemp conference this year. And at the same time that I'm on the panel, literally the same hour that I'm on the panel, we received our GMP certification notice. And so we're really we're real excited about that. We were half of it each other at the at the conference there in New Orleans.
Joy Beckerman: [00:22:31] Yeah, it's so, so important, you know, and most of us, as you may be aware, the president is that his industry association. We, of course, like like the American Herbal Products Association, one of our coalition partners, have adopted a policy. And you're, of course, founder's is is a valuable member FDA type. We are want our members. Yes.
Joy Beckerman: [00:22:52] If you are involved in dietary supplements, then 21 CFR 1 1 1 needs to rule your life. If you are involved in food production in 21 of our 1 1 7 needs to rule your life.
Joy Beckerman: [00:23:04] Then we go right back to where we started. Bob, which is the laws of business apply to your business.
Joy Beckerman: [00:23:10] So just because act like DEA is, you know, extolling this guidance position that the industry leaders of course, we strongly disagree with their guidance that it is a violation of federal law to market CVD as a dietary supplement or a food. The reality is there are regulations around manufacture and dietary supplements.
Bob Crumley: [00:23:30] And food is so critical in our industry that we need to be concentrating on quality. You know, look, our our detractors are going to use negative quality as a reason to be against our product and not just be against that particular product, but to be against Hemp itself. And so we have a new look when you're in a brand new industry that's coming out of a in a legal industry and now it's legal industry. Now there's a lot of a lot of bull's eyes on you and you need to be concentrated into the quality side. And so we made that commitment internally. Our quality control manager has multiple years in the food industry and came to us. And we're just very, very pleased with the result. And I said where the next level for us is the ISO 20. I can't remember the levels 20 some thousand level that we're going for now and I'll probably be there before the end of the year. So that would be very exciting.
Joy Beckerman: [00:24:32] So fantastic. So critical. I came on in January. Also, as Alex and Al's regulatory officer and industry liaison and it means everything to the parents and kids, just follow the line with quality assurance and safety. And when we went to applaud that. Go ahead.
Bob Crumley: [00:24:54] No, I'm just saying we took the transparency one step further when we built. We actually had a pharmaceutical consulting company help design our facility. And one of the things that we did and it was good to be doing conference room above our production facility. So we've actually held the county's Economic Development Corporation has held a board meeting there. We've held two Rotary Club meetings. We held meetings with the local school system with students. They're now looking at some in the community college system. Some some classes are specifically related to Hemp processing. So we've got these big, huge giant picture windows over this big conference room that looks out over our processing facility so people can actually see and see the cleanliness and the processing that we do. We we made a very, very conscious decision in this company to be fully transparent for our customers, but also for the community. So the community doesn't feel that something weird is going on there, that instead they look at and they go, wow, that's pretty that's pretty cool. The quality pretty cool. I mean, when they see our staff in there with the with white coat jackets on. Beard mats, hairnet gloves, they suddenly go, wow, this. These are people not extracting in their bedroom or their bathroom or their kitchen table. This is a real, real deal here. It's so, so important for our industry.
Joy Beckerman: [00:26:14] Absolutely leading leading that example, and in fact, it's not. It reaches beyond transparency into education and demonstrations.
Joy Beckerman: [00:26:23] So while they're saying it's fine an example of how these facilities should be operated, they're also getting their own ideas.
Dan Humiston: [00:26:30] I want to take a quick break. Thank you for listening to today's show and to invite you to check out all of our other Cannabis podcast as the industry's number one Cannabis podcast network. We are constantly adding new shows. So go to MJBulls.com to see our new shows and to become part of the Cannabis podcast network.
Joy Beckerman: [00:26:52] There are things happening specific to North Carolina right now. So I know that the legislation was crazy this year, and I know that you've been a big proponent of allowing local Hemp in North Carolina. And that's one issue.
Joy Beckerman: [00:27:10] The other issue being that now all of the sudden, the North Carolina Department of AG, after, you know, issuing so many licenses, knowing full well these last few years that folks have been growing for Hemp extract, specifically for cannabinoids and specifically for Cannabis, while generally speaking within that group.
Joy Beckerman: [00:27:28] And now all of a sudden issuing guidance that North Carolina may not market Hemp derived cannabinoids Hemp CBD specifically as a dietary supplement or food.
Joy Beckerman: [00:27:39] Tell us a little about a little bit about the notable hemp issue and the. NGUYEN Right.
Bob Crumley: [00:27:46] Yeah, it's really funny.
Bob Crumley: [00:27:48] I too I talk about this all the time, whether I'm whether I'm speaking to bankers or law enforcement or the local Rotary Club, whomever.
Bob Crumley: [00:27:57] And I always tell people, I say in 2017, I believe it was the FDA issued 16 warning letters, as I recall. I think I'm correct on the number 16 warning letters to Hemp companies. Not once, not one single warning letter. Did the FDA then or even now, did they say you are you are marketing CBD? Cease and desist immediately. They didn't say you are marketing CBD as a as a nutritional supplement and you've got nutrition supplement facts on your bottle. Cease and desist that immediately. They have not said that. What they have said is in the supplement backs on your bottle. You say you've got 25 milligrams. We tested it. You've only got 15. Either fix your product or fix your label. Think about that for a second. On the one hand, the FDA in North Carolina, they sent out a missive saying it's illegal to do these products, to put them into food or put them nutritional supplements. And then on the next Senates, they're saying.
Bob Crumley: [00:29:00] But if you do that, here's the best way to make sure that your nutrition facts or your supplement facts are correct.
Bob Crumley: [00:29:08] The other thing that they've done on their on their warning letters is to say you can't make unfounded claims. And I agree with that. And so when you've got when you've got companies out there saying one company, I think had it on their website, sick Hemp CBD is a cancer sale killer. Well, that's going to drive the FDA crazy every single minute of the day. And it should. And so if you really look at what the FDA and what North Carolina is saying is technically, technically, since the FDA has not issued regulations, technically we're not allowed to say what we're selling. But the FDA does.
Joy Beckerman: [00:29:49] And I interrupt you there. I'm just going to interrupt you there just because I speak on this all the time as well, obviously. And you're so close by 2016, there were 14 total warning letters. So there were six more. There were six. There were six issued in 2016, but there had been eight issued in 2015. So by the end of 2010 and 16, you know, we we had these 14 letters. And even as it sits today, there's only 23 code writers that have ever been issued by the FDA. This is the point here is that this technically technically is again. And I'm surprised. I love my brother. You're actually you're chopping the wood and curing the water for the FDA here. And what we say is, no, not technically, no one.
Joy Beckerman: [00:30:40] Generally, I think the issue the industry, the coalition industry takes issue with the FDA and says, hey, we're not even convinced, first of all, that the approval of that the dialects actually met the statutory requirement.
Joy Beckerman: [00:30:52] I agree with the horse. I agree. Yes. You have the scope and length of trial and funding and all of those things.
Joy Beckerman: [00:30:58] And so and so that that North Carolina is unlike New York. Now, keep in mind, New York, which is where I live now, after 20 years in Seattle, I'm back in New York. And, you know, very highly regulated regulators state very.
[00:31:14] Proud of its regulations and the stamp that come from the agriculture and so on and so forth in New York.
Joy Beckerman: [00:31:20] But even they say they disagree with the FDA not for quality assurance, in fact, under the agricultural pilot program here. You have no choice but to process under 21 CFR 111, even sign an agreement saying that you're good, all of those things. But they said if you are going to make these products in New York, you can only market them as a dietary supplement. As you well know, no doubt no food or beverages in New York for CBD, but as a dietary supplement.
Joy Beckerman: [00:31:49] And then we see North Carolina Department of AG going the opposite and sort of saying, well, technically, you're not allowed to do that. So here in North Carolina, we're not allowing you to do that.
Bob Crumley: [00:32:00] Well, OK. What I say technically, I'm taking I'm taking the FDA position. I'm not taking Bob crumbly splash. I'm not taking Patterson.
Bob Crumley: [00:32:12] So when I say yeah, I say that the FDA says the FDA is basically winking and nodding at this industry and they've been winking and nodding at this industry since 2015.
Joy Beckerman: [00:32:23] They've been saying, well, we don't think be a lot more letters. Yes.
Bob Crumley: [00:32:28] When you see more letters, but you only see letters as it relates to the quantity of product in that you're stating on your nutrition facts or supplement facts and you're seeing letters related to unsubstantiated claims and not one.
Bob Crumley: [00:32:43] I have not seen a single letter that says you can't go.
Joy Beckerman: [00:32:48] No, no, I don't mean that. I actually think you misheard me. I said or we would be seeing more letters.
Bob Crumley: [00:32:53] Oh, I know. We're running out your absolute. So what's North Carolina? Rice, North Carolina doing what it's doing.
Joy Beckerman: [00:32:59] North Carolina's going for two. OK, spelling it. You think I perfect family. How are you?
Bob Crumley: [00:33:06] The perfect question. North Carolina is doing this because North Carolina has a very special relationship with the FDA. We actually worked on a department bag, actually runs a very large testing facility for the FDA.
Bob Crumley: [00:33:20] And North Carolina is not going to take a a position that is contra to the FDA position. That's my opinion. OK. I've been in meetings with that and I've been in meetings with them. I know, OK. I sat across from a meeting in a meeting with the Department of Egg and the stable was made to me. Bob, we're not going to inspect you guys right now because the FDA has not given us guidance on how to inspect you. And I said, well, OK, you understand we're not going to stop processing and we're not going to stop selling. And they said, we know it's okay. So North Carolina is doing exactly what the FDA has done. If they send out these letters saying, OK. Since the FDA hasn't issued final regulations, we don't think you can do this, but we're not shutting anybody down. We're not pulling products from shelves. We're not doing. We're not doing any of that kind of stuff. And so so so I I mean, behave. I'll tell you one thing that I believe.
Bob Crumley: [00:34:28] I call this gray area. All right. And I believe very strongly, Joy, that this gray area has been very, very good for small businesses to get started, because had it been very clear, black and white, they one, the big boys would have jumped in and they would have crushed all the mom and pops all the young companies like mine getting started. What what the gray has done for us as an industry, it's allowed us to develop some small to middle sized companies that the big boys are going to have to play with as as when the big boys get to jumping in. It's exactly what happened in the vape industry. The big boys sit on the sidelines for the baby industry for a period of time and then started jumping in, which things got a little more secure in that industry. And I think that's going to happen in our industry. So I believe, as you said, all the great.
Joy Beckerman: [00:35:22] We'll take you, brother, I was just going to say that, you know, are you familiar with the Hemp industry, that Hemp movement and all of that informs forms, textiles, building material, body care was built on the backs of the cottage industry and its amazing delight that, as I say, sort of the cracks in the shadow and the light where Hemp is able to shine through in an art rock. You just fitted on the headset. That's the way the universe conspires in our favor. If I could get spiritual for a minute there, Bob.
Bob Crumley: [00:35:53] Absolutely. One great example when a national hamburger chain. On for 20 of this year, April 20th of this year, put a Hemp extra Hemp extract barbecue sauce on burgers and sold it for four dollars and 20 cents, as I understand that was that was a look through the FDA. Go on. OK, whatever. And what did the FDA do? They didn't do anything.
Bob Crumley: [00:36:20] Ok, so there. I believe. I believe. Let's let's take the bait industry per second. The debate industry was around for, what, 14 years before the FDA started doing any significant regulation.
Bob Crumley: [00:36:33] Well, industry be around for 14 years before they get around to issuing regulations.
Bob Crumley: [00:36:40] I don't know. Maybe I will. Maybe we won't. I don't think we will. But but we know.
Bob Crumley: [00:36:45] I know. I believe very strongly that what we produce in our facility is going to be inspected and regulated pursuant to 111 CFR 111. Yes. And so. Yes. So that's why. So that's when we went when we got the pharmaceutical consulting company to help design our building. We asked them to design it to that standard. When we went and got GMP certified, we were GMP certified under Section 111. And so, you know, again, I agree with what you said a minute ago, Joy. You couldn't I couldn't have said it better. If you're in the Hemp industry and you're making food, push yourself to GNP, food. If you're in the nutritional supplement and it push yourself to GNP, nutritional supplement, get the quote, medical became absolutely, absolutely absolute.
Joy Beckerman: [00:37:37] And I still want to talk about this notable Hemp aspect before we go. But I just also wanted to give a nod, of course, to the founders Hemp brand. That is it here when we said cosmetic, because, of course, you've got your green brand and you've got Hemp. Excellent. The body hair brand and your extractors as well. The cosmetics, they're so important. And again, the advocacy with regard to the issue in the North Carolina legislature of rebel hands vs. not allowing Rick.
Bob Crumley: [00:38:09] Right. There was a there was a few members of the General Assembly who, for various reasons, have a problem with smoke about Hemp. Primarily, it's law enforcement's creation. I believe the North Carolina SB Aster site Bureau of Investigation got involved in a email or letter out to all the legislators saying how they could not any longer search people's cars when they smelled or saw what they thought was marijuana because it could be Hemp. Look, I just got interviewed earlier today by a TV station on this issue here in North Carolina. And I told them what I'll tell you over two and a half years ago, Joy, I called the North Carolina SBI, the North County, Ala. I'll call law enforcement. The North Carolina Police Chiefs Association and the North Carolina Sheriffs Association offered myself up to come teach them and help them to get past this issue on smoking pot and other issues in the cannabis industry. The Sheriffs Association said we don't need you at our event. Thanks for calling the FBI and the never called us back. The Police Chiefs Association called us back and allowed me to speak at their event. So later now, two and a half years have gone by. North Carolina leadership, law enforcement leadership has done nothing to get a roadside test kits available out there as an entity.
Bob Crumley: [00:39:33] They haven't. So then they send this e-mail letter to all the legislators saying our law enforcement is getting hurt.
Bob Crumley: [00:39:41] We can't tell the difference. Hemp and marijuana on the street. And that's not true. Guilford County Sheriff's Department in North Carolina tested a roadside gasket in 2017 and 2018. That was 100 percent correct on distinguishing between Hemp and marijuana. Virginia has now issued drug test kits on the roadside to test the different green Hemp and marijuana. And so we've got law enforcement in North Carolina that are, in my opinion, not getting all the all the facts to the legislators. It's call some legislators to be caught in a whipsaw between do we help farmers and hurt law enforcement and us as an industry. We've been saying you can help both. We've offered a multitude of things, whether open container provision in an automobile to assisting the state with getting road roadside test kits and other. Supposedly the DEA is coming out with some test kits that we'll be able to tell the different Hemp of marijuana. So there's been a big brouhaha. Rah rah. I don't think the statute is going to pass in North Carolina if it passes and if the governor signs it, the ban smoking will Hemp sometime next year. I don't think the courts will allow that to stay in it. The the the farm bill is very clear. 18 farm bills, very clear states and Indian tribes cannot change the definition of Hemp. And if you're going to ban part of the Hemp plant, because you're saying it is a controlled substance, you have changed the definition and that is illegal under federal law. So I don't. It is a it is somewhat worrisome that our state might try that, but I don't think it's going to ultimately be successful.
Joy Beckerman: [00:41:20] It's such a fascinating revolution as we navigate our way through. Oh, so many uses of the Hemp plant and you and the North Carolina feel Hemp coalition certainly played a huge part in and continue to play a huge part in educating the legislature and seeing how how we move forward there. Well. I just thank you so very much for being with us today, Bob. For every surgeon who not only to lead the not only to the industry, but just as an advocate, as a champion for the plant, as a champion for commonsense, inclusive law and regulation, as we work our way through the reemergence of this versatile, viable crop.
Joy Beckerman: [00:42:02] Thank you for everything you do, Bob.
Bob Crumley: [00:42:03] Well, we thank and we thank you. And the I mean, the work that you guys have done, the plowing, the field that you all did for years and years has just been so, so good for us. And to be a part of the HIV as a member, I would tell your listeners, if you're not a member of HIV, I join now. We've got to stand together. We've got to work together in HIV. Does a fabulous Jalbert.
Joy Beckerman: [00:42:28] Thank you. When we built our coalition partners so, so much in that joint Hemp or against the founders sense that founders Hemp got organs. Something tells me with conference season coming up, Bob, I'm gonna get you and your lovely wife again soon.
Bob Crumley: [00:42:42] I'm sure you will. I'll.
Bob Crumley: [00:42:46] I'll be speaking at the North Carolina Bankers Association meeting in September, and I'm not sure where I'm speaking. There's another speaking engagement sometime after that. But you are loved, loved to help people not in the Hemp industry get educated about Hemp to show. Look forward to speaking to the North Carolina bankruptcy.
Joy Beckerman: [00:43:03] So important, so important, thank you again, Bob had such a great .
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