Creating the rules and laws that govern industries is a very complicated and tedious process. Herrick Fox spent 16 years working for the USDA before becoming a hemp farmer in Vermont. He joins Joy Beckerman to talk about Meristem Farms and his efforts to correct the mistakes in USDA's hemp rules. Produced by PodCONX https://podconx.com/guests/herrick-fox
Creating the rules and laws that govern industries is a very complicated and tedious process. Herrick Fox spent 16 years working for the USDA before becoming a hemp farmer in Vermont. He joins Joy Beckerman to talk about Meristem Farms and his efforts to correct the mistakes in USDA's hemp rules.
https://podconx.com/guests/herrick-fox
Joy Beckerman: [00:00:10] Welcome to Hemp Barons, everybody. I'm Joy Backerman, and I hope that today's show finds you and your family healthy and at peace. And if you haven't been healthy, I hope you're recovering to such a transformative time. And I know that we all have different levels of challenges and obstacles that we're facing and certainly inconveniences that we're learning to to handle and work through. I really believe that this transformative time is giving us an opportunity to learn so many lessons, everything from what kind of food choices have I been making? And now I have a little bit more awareness and mindful bandwidth to make a better choice. Or she say, I recognize that my daily routine has gotten off kilter over the years in my busy life, and I want to integrate these other good habits that I used to practice or that I've been wanting to practice for years into my daily routine now. So there's just so many opportunities for us to make better choices. Really take the time to work through those frustrations and those inconveniences and sit with those uncomfortable and negative feelings and transform them and evolve. And I also fully recognize that I am in a good position that I can do that. I am not suffering for employment right now. And my heart is going out to the many, many millions of people across America and certainly the world who are suffering tremendously. And we know that the unemployment rolls are just exponentially going up. We have families who are hungry, children who are hungry, people who have medical needs.
Joy Beckerman: [00:01:50] And and, of course, my heart goes out to children and families who live in homes where there is domestic violence, where there is substance abuse. And, of course, those issues and those problems are compounded by staying at home. And yet it's what science is telling us we absolutely must do. And so my heart is going out to those folks as I as I sit here and count my blessings, my very many blessings, and move through this opportunity to change and to evolve and being part of making the world a better place. I really do believe that this transformative time of Corona virus has the highest potential for change in our lifetime. So thank you for being a part of this with me and for listening. And I I'm just sending you my most positive vibrations and and beaming as much love and light as I can out to the world and out to everybody for strength and inspiration so we can make the most of this when I'm going to call in opportunity, even though. Yes, it's an opportunity that's coming in the form of a pandemic, the likes of which we've not seen before. And and as it turns out, there's this gradual reopening in being discussed in certain jurisdictions. We currently have a date for New York State, which is May 15th, that the stay at home order will start to be gradually lifted and so on and so forth.
Joy Beckerman: [00:03:19] So there is some some change happening and some signs on the horizon that we might start to get back into our new and improved normal. And that's the story I'm sticking to, that it's gonna be a new and improved normal. And at the same time, we do have to wait and see. We're all very concerned about a second wave and have learned from Spanish flu and and other pandemics what the reality of that potential is, is so. So we'll see. In terms of Hemp industry news, there's some been some really great news, actually. And there was a recent major call to action by the have been Destry and agricultural coalitions. And as you folks may know, I'm the vise president of federal lobbying for the U.S. Hemp Roundtable, which is our nation's leading 50 oncea for advocacy organization for Hemp. And we joined in many of the other Hemp industry organizations and advocacy groups, along with those agricultural groups, to send out massive PR and calls to action for folks to be seach the White House to ensure that Hemp farmers and Hemp companies could be eligible for the E IDL program. That's the economic injury disaster loan program that the Small Business Administration is administering under the CAIR's act that recently passed for the Corona virus. And good news as what happens when people get together. Those advocacy efforts were a tremendous success. So now under the Paycheck Protection Program Increase Act, what we're calling the PDP Act, which of course was a piece of the keres package, is expected to be signed to law probably by the time you hear this.
Joy Beckerman: [00:04:57] This new issue is going to be signed into law, this this new benefit, and it's going to allow Hemp farmers and companies to be clearly eligible for. Funds under the IDL, the economic injury disaster long loan program, and even better than that, Congress added another 10 billion to the ideal program and increased the paycheck protection program funding by another three hundred billion dollars. So it was originally three hundred and forty nine billion and it went up to six hundred and fifty nine billion. So we're talking an increase. All in all of $400 billion, along with the clear eligibility of Hemp farmers and companies to have access to those funds. So this was a majorly important in it and a great success. And and another bold demonstration of what happens when people get together and make their voices heard here in the United States where believe it or not, guys, no matter what you're hearing or thinking from the current time, we have the greatest system in the world and our leaders do work for us. And when we make our voices heard strongly and in concert with one another and we're on when we're aligned, all of the interests in these various industries, we make change. And believe me, we can do it easily, but we have to do it together. And we and we have to to respond when we hear those calls to action to respond.
Joy Beckerman: [00:06:23] And that, by the way, gives me a great opportunity to say, would you please go as soon as you have a moment to Hemp supporter dot com. That's Hemp supporter dot com. And that's the Web site for the US Hemp roundtable. You can quickly click the join button in the upper right hand corner to sign up for our newsletters and we will keep you updated on calls to action developments in the industries legally and regulatory. We really want you to become a Hemp supporter because it supports America and we need you. All of us are so important. It's a great and easy way. We're not spammers. You're not going to get a ton of e-mails. But believe me, when those important calls to action happen, we want them to end up in your inbox and for you to take the basically 10 seconds it takes to hear that call and act upon them. Additionally, on April 17th, the USDA announced the Corona Virus Food Assistance Program, the CFA AP and that music that uses existing funds appropriated for the Carers Act by making $19 billion dollars available in immediate relief to farmers and ranchers. We're not sure yet whether Hemp producers, whether Hemp farmers are going to qualify for those funds. The Corona Virus Food Assistance Program funds. But I can tell you that the US Hemp roundtable is going to be working with our our contacts on Capitol Hill and the USDA to ensure maximum support to the very best that we can.
Joy Beckerman: [00:07:46] And speaking of the USDA, there's a great show in store for you folks. So excited to bring to you a fantastic interview with Rick Fox, CEO of meriSTEM Farms. Rick is the kind of professional, experienced professional that we'd love to see turning to Hemp and really altering his career to use the skills and talents and intellect that he has to join us in Hemp. So many incredible women and men across America are are transitioning their careers and and finding the promise and the opportunity this versatile, valuable crop. And Rick is one such soul, not only with the Fulbright scholar as a young college student, but he's been with USDA all in all for around 16 years in combination, mostly with the Forest Service, the USDA Forest Service and then the Foreign Agricultural Marketing Service, as well as working internationally in Russia for six years on an environmental program, coordination with them. He is a brilliant gent as it comes to rule making laws all around USDA jurisdictions. But he's also happens to be very well skilled in infrastructure and has an incredible network of professional really world leading geneticists, plant breeders and agronomists, so on and so forth. So very excited to have him on the show here. And I hope that you enjoy and we're going to have Rick on again. Again, he's he's really the type of person that we very much want to have in Hemp.
Joy Beckerman: [00:09:24] In any event. Enjoy the show, folks.
Joy Beckerman: [00:09:34] Well, hello, Rick. Thank you so much for being with us on Hemp Barons today.
Herrick Fox: [00:09:37] Thank you, Joy. It's great to be on with you. Y
Joy Beckerman: [00:09:39] ou know, we got one of these souls, these intellectuals and these real doers, a gentleman who rolls up his sleeves to to advance agriculture and someone who we're so lucky to have in Hemp at this nation stage as this versatile, viable crop reemerges and reestablishes itself because we are building the infrastructure here. We are connecting the dots and we need regulations. We need folks who can see around corners in the midst of all of the inspiration and misinformation that comes with the truly exciting and revolutionary opportunity to introduce another crop into America's agricultural scheme. Although in this case, reintroducing. And Rick, your pedigree is just outstanding. Again, we're so lucky to have you now putting all of your talents and skills and experience into Hemp. You've spent 12 years working for the USDA Forest Service. Another three years working for the USDA is Foreign Agricultural Service. You know, six years working with as an environmental program coordinator in Russia. And you're a Fulbright scholar. I really can't imagine anyone more perfectly suited to get into distribution that genetics. And again, building these critical blocks of delivering on the promise of all that Hemp is and can be for our our nation. So it's just wonderful to have you and great to have you in Hemp. You're the CEO of Mary's STEM Farms. When you first start by telling us when you decided to to jump off the cliff and throw yourself into this opportunity and this incredible crop.
Herrick Fox: [00:11:23] Wow. Well, sure, happy to. And you may be blessed with how you started, but yeah, it's really all those nice things you started. Really just another way of what I call myself, a recovering bureaucrat trying to be useful in the private sector. So, yeah, I was about 15 years and USDA and rising through the ranks quite a bit, learned a lot, got some things done.
Herrick Fox: [00:11:52] And, you know, that's people tend to look at their public service careers and agencies and a 30 year time frame. And I was about halfway through.
Herrick Fox: [00:11:59] So I was thinking, well, I'll stay in this and I'm going to stay in this until I'm pretty much done and decided I needed something more creative. I wanted to see some more direct impact. I wanted to get involved in, frankly, something more profitable. And yeah. I mean, it's actually a long story how it ended up in the way we were going to start out in the aphc candidates. Going back to some very old friends from my college days and that tour. But there are a few different pivots along the way and we ended up settling on getting into the emphasis here in Vermont to do see the family up here. My wife had a federal career as well, and we both decided to just take the leap. And I think we're still in the air in Lisbon. So but, you know, maybe we're grown grown some wings. So it's it's been it's been an incredible adventure learning time. You know, hopefully adding some value on the way.
Joy Beckerman: [00:13:09] Indeed. And and I want to talk much more about what Mary Stone is doing. So it's a dream team of sorts that you have created to operate Mary's STEM farms and and how you find time. And I know you how you do it because I do the same thing. Do you find time by, you know, not sleeping and eating properly and self-care? But hey, the plant is is purpose driven endeavor. And so you manage to find time, of course, and really even drive and lead to ongoing dialog, particularly as it relates to the USDA as interim final rule. And there's a lot going on right now. Movement is taking place.
Joy Beckerman: [00:13:54] And and I think you you might have an update or some news for us that I'm very, very excited to not only discover myself as if during this interview, but, of course, to share with our listeners.
Joy Beckerman: [00:14:06] And before we get to that, so Meristem, of course, while you sell beautiful biomass for cannabinoid processing and sell your own smokable products, gorgeous products that I'm viewing on on the Web site. You also work with distribution again, because your passion here is is to be the infrastructure is to really create.
Joy Beckerman: [00:14:32] A foundation to deliver on this, on the promise of this plant that we can counter, that we build on, that is solid and that is going to give the American farmer, the American manufacturing consumer here the highest chance of success. So tell us a little bit about what's on the horizon for Mary Stark, what you're working on right now.
Herrick Fox: [00:14:53] Yeah, happy to. You know, the last year, you know, we have some very experienced people on our team in growing this amazing plant. I just try to absorb as much as I can or not around them. But for it, for our company, this was last year was our first year growing.
Herrick Fox: [00:15:08] And it was a struggle like for many have farms. And one of the things or several of the things that we learned is that, you know, there there are major problems throughout the value chain in the industry, and a lot of those come back to the regulations. And so, you know, in fact, the USDA interim final rule directly impacted our business. Like many others around the country, you know, so so we decided to take a closer look and take some action there. The news the news is coming very soon.
Herrick Fox: [00:15:50] But I can tell you this, that, you know, that there are when I was in USDA, I was actually in charge of rulemaking in my division when I was back in the Forest Service and handled a lot of rulemaking issues and legislative affairs and the other office across the street and the department USDA.
Herrick Fox: [00:16:15] And, you know, there are very specific. Requirements for how federal agencies are supposed to go about issuing rules. And well, it became quite clear that the USDA didn't follow those rules. And that's bad enough in and of itself. But the lack of information that they got from the public and from science is partly what directly impacted so many companies in the industry. You know, specifically the 15 day testing window, the theoretical testing of Dukat box related THC, which people refer to as total THC, but isn't really total THC at all. And the way they sample for only flowers, these are things that if they had done their public comment the way they're supposed to, they probably wouldn't have gotten so wrong and not so many businesses would have been impacted. So, you know, there there are, from our view, clear violations of two laws, Administrative Procedures Act and the Regulatory Flexibility Act. The first one, the one that requires public notice and comment. And the second one requires an analysis of impacts on small business. So we we've finished. We finished our preparations for the next step on helping USDA to address those issues. And I would look for an announcement very soon about specifically what's going to happen in that regard. And there are there are a lot of other problems in the interim final rule also that we want to take up. You know, the good news is that I think USDA is aware of it. And I will say that they were pretty brave in taking on those challenges. This is a new crop in contemporary agriculture in the United States.
Herrick Fox: [00:18:20] So, you know, I appreciate their courage in taking it on. I just wish they hadn't been forced to rush it so much. I'm getting this draft out. Hopefully, hopefully that can be fixed very soon. Their decision to delay enforcement of two other provisions in the rule, mandated DNA registration of labs.
Herrick Fox: [00:18:42] And because those are crops, you know, that's a really bad sign. And that's really a roadmap for how this can be fixed without, shall we say, more extended proceedings. I think we'll see a lot more in the next week or two about what can be done there.
Joy Beckerman: [00:18:58] Wonderful. And indeed, you know, it was encouraging those two stays, as you say.
Joy Beckerman: [00:19:04] It's certainly that they didn't get rid of this requirement for labs testing. It can happen later. Specifically the THC levels in Hemp. Could you be a registered? They're holding off right until 2021 for now. But that was a wonderful reprieve because it really struck me as upsetting the American farmer for failure. Had they done otherwise? Well, I can certainly appreciate and believe me, I like you guys find the silver lining in all of these things and cheer me on the heroes and heroines at the USDA are really trying to deliver on this crop. I was so disappointed, of course, as we know, the disposal is what was in the farm bill, not the word destruction. And they had to come out with destruction. And we beat it like a dead horse in public comments and in other meetings with higher up USDA officials. And so it was wonderful to see that they were like, OK, here are other ways that you can dispose of it. Having said that, you know, I continue to just beat the door down for pyrolysis to be a method to dispose of non-compliant here. But of course, the USDA Agricultural Research Service is themselves conducting tremendous research on pyrolysis and and certainly to the unique cellulosic makeup of of Hemp cellulose, of Hemp biomass, I should say, naches. It just an incredibly valuable source for for the the products, the pure products that can result from pyrolysis and could essentially serve the energy fuels, air and space, nanotechnology and so many other industries. But I digress. Hopefully we can't pyrolysis. I didn't feel like that with such a reach to ask for pyrolysis, the stuff would be completely destroyed and add so much value to the crop. But Dad. But hopefully we'll get it next time. I'm really excited to hear about what changes are going to be taking place and cannot thank you enough for your leadership, Rick, in really addressing the due process that that wasn't followed during that.
Herrick Fox: [00:21:20] And there's a there's a lot of people in and around the industry who have stepped up, including you, Joy. And and, you know, many of the organizations that we're affiliated with. You know, I will say that state agriculture commissioner has really stepped up to pressure USDA on those two issues for as as to the trade associations and companies like our own. You know, but you know, the conversations with state ag commissioners that I've had and I know they've had with USDA played an important part of that. I mean, in fact, Undersecretary Bob announced those changes at the National Association of State Department of Agriculture meeting in several areas in response to to their to their push. And so I think this all really underscores that, you know, a coordinated effort is needed. And the more that people understand those plants, whether they're regulators or elected officials or folks like us throughout the industry, you know, I think that increased understanding take some of the pressure off, you know. I mean, this is and, you know, prohibition was you know, this was a newly legalized crop. And, you know, I think it's. Oh, no. The DEA and the drug czar's office in the White House have had a lot of influence over this process. Things actually go on. I know.
Joy Beckerman: [00:22:53] Well, you didn't mention once in the farm bill that it's mentioned forty three times in 42 pages of rules. I'm pretty sure they had a hand in it. Dear Lord.
Herrick Fox: [00:23:06] Well, you know, and this this is where this is where, you know, industry stakeholders and the public can come in and help. Congressional intent was fairly clear in the farm bill. I think that they really want the USDA to manage Hemp and not the EPA. But, you know, the federal government being what it is. There are certain, you know, levers of power throughout the executive branch. And USDA is not always on top of those levers. So, you know, it was very helpful. You know, Secretary Perdue testified at a couple of hearings in February, and we were you were fortunate that he was asking questions about that.
Herrick Fox: [00:23:43] And, you know, he did really underscore the degree to which the DEA and the drug czar's office influenced that process. You know, he he refrained from criticizing it, as he probably should if he wants to keep his job in the cabinet. But, you know, he pointed out the facts very clearly. And that is something that, you know, which we are all reacting to. You know, another key thing that happened in those committee hearings is that he acknowledged that the IFR is a draft. I was very pleased with my former colleagues on the Hill that they were able to allow the committee members have already asked. The committee members obviously asked their own questions. But I think I think everyone in those offices realized those issues.
Herrick Fox: [00:24:31] And we're we're we're bordering on wonkery here. But, you know, a lot of folks in the industry are paying attention to the 2014 farm bill, authorities that are supposed to expire this year. Corn states have the option to use the of authorities this year. And the fact that the secretary testified that it is a draft really is a very clear acknowledgement that the provisions that that call for the 2014 farm bill authorities to be repealed at the end of this year don't apply. It's really very interesting. The provision in the farm bill specifically says that 2014 authorities are to be repealed one year from the date that the secretary establishes a plant. And I plan they're referring to the new rule while the secretary just testified to Congress that it's not a final word and has not yet established the plan, it's a draft.
Herrick Fox: [00:25:22] So, you know, we just need to really corner that point and we're going to.
Joy Beckerman: [00:25:26] So great to hear that because, you know, I've worked so hard with New York, which, by the way, is easy to work with, you know, counterintuitive.
Joy Beckerman: [00:25:36] Here is the fact that New York, which really loves to be the gold standard for food safety and quality, and indeed, they are creating that cover by forcing compliance with the codes of federal regulations for current good manufacturing practices, for food, dietary supplements and so on in the state. But even New York was like, sorry, guys, we're sticking with the 2014 farm bill as long as we can get this fixed, because we put money, we put resources, we believe in this crop. We want New York to be a leader in this crop and you're setting this up for failure here. So thanks anyway. And amazing to get that result from even Kentucky.
Herrick Fox: [00:26:18] Did it even Kentucky, which was which, you know, if if the rumors are true, was one of the states pushing, advocating very strongly to have the new USDA will put in place as quickly as possible. You know, I can't I can't say for a fact that's true. But I've heard that from a lot of people.
Herrick Fox: [00:26:36] Well, not one at all. When it all came down, they said, you know what? We're sticking with 2014. So you guys either work on this?
Joy Beckerman: [00:26:44] Absolutely. Got that right. Quarrels. You know, it's just so awesome. Of course, they had a major hero call her as well.
Joy Beckerman: [00:26:51] But he's gone to to become a member in Congress. And yeah, I mean, Kentucky looks as though under the rules, unless you're going to mess with their farmers.
Herrick Fox: [00:26:59] Right. Exactly. And these are things that, you know, I mean, again, like, you know, I've spent most of my career in public service. You know, in the bureaucracy. And when I was in USDA, I knew that it was the farmers who who had the truth, the truth. And whenever you know who I am or the foresters when I was in the Forest Service. But the folks were out actually out there making their living, you know, in the fields and in the woods. They know what's going on. And when a regulation impacts them, it's plain as day. Yeah.
Herrick Fox: [00:27:30] And so the enlightenment for me coming out of the bureaucracy and, you know, becoming a farmer. Yeah. These regulations come down the pike. And suddenly my biomass, my biomass contracts are a mess and I'm looking at laying off employees. I don't know how to plant them next year.
Joy Beckerman: [00:27:48] I mean, you know, it's a nightmare and it's time for us to protect the farmers. You know, the farmers are clearly sick and tired of it.
Joy Beckerman: [00:27:57] I you know, the more I worry about it, the more no way are the farmers going to be the ones to continue to take the risk, to continue to take the hit. Well, the reality is, without the top 6 inches of soil at rainfall, we're all going to die. The farmers are the heroes. And, you know, our lives basically depend on them. It's time to understand their as well as teachers roles in the, you know, the regeneration and sustainability, of course, of our entire civilization. I wanted to ask you first up and set it up with just this little factoid and then move on to the reality. And it's a stark reality. That's not something that's pleasant to talk about, but it's important for folks to know where that is increases and the problems we have with farmer suicides, bankruptcies. But leading up to that, when we talk about that DEA registration of many of the conversations that you would I had like I had taken a course, such a huge, deep guy. I mean, this is my purpose driven life. Here is Hemp into the IFR and preparing those public conflicts with various attorneys. But then as as our conversation, yours and mine began to expand deeper. And, you know, you just continue to take these deeper and deeper looks.
Joy Beckerman: [00:29:15] And as I got into the final rules, specifically drilling into the DEA lab registration requirement requirement, it literally states that the labs, the HIV, that that the labs need to be registered within the criteria of 21 U.S.C. 8:23 S.. So U.S. code, which is basically it. And then I got into that code and that pertains to the registration of, quote, manufacturers, distributors and dispensers of controlled substances. So here we are telling our farmers through the IFR that they are big factories, distributors and dispensers of controlled substances. I mean, just crazy pants, but really setting standing folks up for failure.
[00:30:02] Talk for a minute about about your insight as to this dark but very real and unfortunately growing problem of farmer suicides increase and bankruptcies.
Herrick Fox: [00:30:13] Yeah, well, you know, and this is this has been something that's been going on, you know, throughout AG for a couple of years now. I mean, you know, maybe maybe longer. I mean, you know, the plight of the family farm in this country is, you know, unfortunately a long story, a long and sad story. It's more than just a couple of years. But, yeah, you know, the the upheavals that have gone on over the last few years, specifically trade issues, changes in markets. I mean, dairy farms up here in Vermont and frankly, in every dairy producing state, you know, the trends have really not been working in farmers favor. But I'm actually going to turn this this historic story into something optimistic.
Herrick Fox: [00:30:59] And we're we're in a time of great upheaval now with its front page news every day. How important farming is to food security and to our economy. I mean, I think people, you know, intuitively know that throughout society, but they're in touch with it on a daily basis or maybe a weekly basis, because they only go to the grocery store every week now more than ever. And and I think this is actually you know, it's it's it's one of those moments where a paradigm shift. Yeah. And I think I think there is going to be a new appreciation of farms in the farm economy and also how to properly manage the value chains for it. I mean, you know, you can read in the mainstream news now how a large meatpacking plant can't supply pork to to consumers because they're set up to supply to large institutional service providers. Right. I mean, I'm using big words that basically they have the wrong equipment. They have equipment that's all set up so they can fill big bags of onions instead of little bags like what you find at the grocery store. And all of this comes back to how the value chain is managed. And I don't I don't want to turn this into a larger discussion on ag policy, but specifically the Hemp. We have an opportunity now and I mean right now to reinvigorate the conversation about how Hemp diversifies farm revenues especially. I mean, those farms that have lost their markets, it's not too late for them to plan ahead. You know, for a lot of them anyway. And if they're trashing their onions and and and and I'm actually not. Onion fields are the best place to to grow hot.
Joy Beckerman: [00:32:42] But believe it or not, this biggest piece of territory with the New York state, where we have that incredible deposit of black dirt, the largest continuous deposit of black dirt on the planet. In Orange County, it's a big onion producing region. Well, there no, those big onion guys. Believe me, they have added Hemp into a rotation, brother.
Herrick Fox: [00:33:05] Yeah. Well, so they should out they should add a lot more. And you know, what this comes back to is not just diversifying farm revenues, but also, you know, where our textile is going to come from in this new normal that we're gonna when to come out of this. This is cold and fog. A more global supply chains are going to be nothing like they were before. So whether it's textiles, whether it's raw materials for sure, plastics and and, you know, the fifty thousand things we haven't even discovered yet about what we can use for Hemp. So this is really you know, this this is a key moment for, frankly, the U.S. government and Congress and how they allocate their next round of stimulus funding. You know, it's this one that's I think being signed today is 3.5 and face for I think it's coming down the pike soon. So, you know, time for victory in World War 2. Hemp for Liberty Now or whatever slogan you want. Yeah.
Herrick Fox: [00:33:59] You know, this is a huge opportunity to divert more federal funding to stimulate the development of the Hemp industry. Let's have purchased contacts. Let's have R&D grants and marketing orders. So that so because your way this was gonna happen is this is if the federal government funds capacity in the hapen industry to actually realize its potential when I'm talking mostly about fiber Hemp.
Herrick Fox: [00:34:25] Now we're resident, we're Resnikoff company, but fiber head is where my heart is well and it's much bigger stakes for the economy and society in general. So trillion dollar industry wide spectrum.
Herrick Fox: [00:34:40] So the opportunity right now is to say, all right. First of all, take the shackles off the Hemp family. OK, we understand you were trying to get it right with the IFR. You didn't have the right information. You were pushed to Russia. It came out all wrong. So we just set it aside right now. Let the people go the harp without having to worry about losing their livelihood. It's bad enough as it is. Right, that IFR, you know, let's talk about half a specialty crop. Hemp can be both a specialty crop and the grain crop and access both sets of funding. The USDA has funding to support both those things. You know, of course, there's the THC threshold and Hemp extracts as dietary supplements, which is something we're working on. But really, the big story is invest some of that stimulus funding in the future of the U.S., not only ag economy, the manufacturing economy, and let's make happen and take a part of it. So we don't have to depend on foreign sources like they can an option, not a requirement. So, you know, these are things that I think I hope we're all we're all going to read about in the news in the next couple weeks.
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Herrick Fox: [00:36:29] Part of my time in the US. Yeah, I was on the Hill, I worked in Senate committee. Some of those folks are now with senator probes and there are some benefits to being a resident of rock where member of the Appropriations Committee in the Senate is Vermont's senior senator Pat Leahy, who's very interested in Hemp, as are many, many great senators in both parties. And so, I mean, you know, Hemp really is a nonpartizan issue. And I think we should all constantly remember that. Fab., bipartisan, nonpartisan, anyway. There's a lot of political will right now to explore new options, especially that make us more self-sufficient and more resilient. And so that's my message to everyone and the Hemp industry. You know, those are key words for us and the folks who have their fingers on the print button. For months pregnant. They're listening and they're pushing that button, you know. So I think. Yes. It's been a dark time in our culture. United States, it's very, very dark right now. But I always say the worse things get, the sooner the better.
Joy Beckerman: [00:37:34] You know, and that is that is the thinking that is going to take us out of this thing and really the reality of it. Now, I know as we are experiencing Corona virus that there are people suffering tremendously. I very much recognize the blessings in my life and those blessings capture them. By the time I get to four, I have so much energy to reach out to those who are suffering and seeing what I can do here. And so fully acknowledging the suffering that's that is being experienced in all around our nation and around the world. I also want to say that this is an incredibly transformative time with probably the highest potential for change in, you know, since the Great Depression. And I don't even know how well we did coming out of that. We were much smarter as people now. And I really believe that this situation in which we find ourselves are highlighting exactly the points that you're raising right now. And as you were speaking, I recalled a few years ago, we went on the Boston history toward I I was born in Boston. I've lived in Boston. The thing about the Boston History Tour is you should probably take it every five years because there's just new things as our own experience expands that we gather during this tour, which is so informative. And I just recall going around on the boat, it's a boat and a bus tour and constantly the answer was, see this pier here, especially around the boat.
Joy Beckerman: [00:39:08] Now, that used to be filled with commerce, you know, because we need your factories stuff here in Boston for a good long time. And we've been empty now for decades because, you know, our number one source of revenue in the city of Boston now is tourism, like a third world Caribbean islands. You know, number one source of resources, tourism as opposed to manufacturing. And I mean, I remember it probably wasn't a few years ago now it was probably 10 time goes by so fast, especially since the Hemp revolution went on steroids. But, you know, I really feel that this is is teaching us that. I'm wondering, are you familiar with Senator Tulsi Gabbard, Hemp for Victory Act? I am, yes. Very, very honored to be asked to be involved with that. At its inception of the drafting set up and speaking with her incredible team and her chosen crazy, crazy, brilliant and motivated and inspired very langstaff and policy directors. It was through that drafting that I was like, oh, Department of Defense. I mean, Hemp for victory. Right. And and they had not been aware of the Hemp for Victory film. And so I said, Man, yeah, you got to get this film from the Department of Defense and really watch it. For all I know, the senator had in fact, you know, her dad, Mike Gabbert, is quick to hampster himself, but the policy folks hadn't.
Joy Beckerman: [00:40:33] And I really see this as an opportunity. And I have been trying to get various groups to really start to back that bill because it's directing. And I as I learned through drafting that bill, I got quite an education from Tulsi Gabbard, staff weirdo. And you'd think it would be obvious to me, but it wasn't. And that is that we are the largest produce. We are the largest purchaser of goods in the world, the United States government. And so I learned and you think it would be obvious, but it was not to me. I learned through Tulsi Gabbard staff that the U.S. government is the largest purchaser of goods in the world and that the Department of Defense is the largest purchaser of all of the other departments. And so if we get something going with this bill that directs every single department within the United States to sort of take a tally of all that they buy research, whether those items could be improved with Hemp based or Hemp blended products, and then use that data to give to the Small Business Administration and lenders to discuss what are states and and really prove what a state debt, Hemp economy and Hemp lending is. I really think that, you know, that would just be tremendous. And obviously, so does the senator.
Herrick Fox: [00:41:54] Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the buying power of the Pentagon is it is just like just like you're suggesting a huge opportunity. I think I read an article. I know one of the Hemp journals or maybe something that was broader than just a couple of weeks ago. The Department of Defense signed a purchase contract to maybe they were just. Testing Cannabis materials. I can't remember if it was a new kind of bulletproof vest or whatever it was. To go look at it, but yeah. But when you look at it, for example, we want to use stimulus funding to to fund USDA or frankly the test department for purchase contracts for Hemp. They'll use it there. You know, how much how much material do they use every month or a year to make new uniforms? Military makes their uniforms out of Hemp. You know, why don't we? So and I think probably some parts of it already are. But yeah. And then, of course, stall the advance by the fire plastics and the research. You know, so many exciting things to do there. But if we don't have the supply chain to support it, it's not going to go anywhere. And that's why that's why these moments when the government realizes they need to print money are opportunities not for handouts, but to make to make investments that only governments can, you know. I mean, obviously, this isn't something quite on the scale of the interstate highway system. But, you know, when you have an opportunity and you have political will to spend money on on societal needs on this scale, you know, amazing things can happen.
Herrick Fox: [00:43:37] And so I think, you know, so how about loan guarantees for more processing? Right. How about how about looking at how have, you know, a better distribution channels, you know, coming back to the value chain for a minute or two? You know, it's it's weird, you know, economists, but it seems very weird that, you know, with prices falling so much and what farmers are being paid for their crop. And I'm talking about I'm talking about the new products, how you how the prices on the shelves haven't changed. You know, you want to if you want a fifteen hundred milligram bottle of nice tincture that comes from a reputable source, you're still paying around a hundred bucks retail, maybe a hundred twenty, maybe ninety others deals online. But you know, those prices aren't on a quarter of what they were. But the firms producing Hemp, you know, they're likely to get ten bucks a pound, you know, dollar a point for 10 percent TBD. You know when they were looking at $40 last summer I mean before. So what's going on there is what economists call a market distortion. When supply when there is so much supply and the price should come down, basic supply and demand. But because the processing capacity isn't there and because the distribution systems are all due to this, they call it quirky. I broker Hemp, too, you know. You know, there's plenty of really good brokers out there who do provide you add value. So, you know, I'll just stop there.
Joy Beckerman: [00:45:14] I was just going to say I'm not doing a whole lot to find a break cheap, making it appropriate joke stuff.
Herrick Fox: [00:45:19] You should share it. Surely the distribution systems kind of need to be more efficient. Everything from, you know, quality assurance to, you know, verification systems, all that sort of stuff. My point is that those those risk factors and those uncertainties and let's not forget, you know, difficulty with access to financial services to do things, introduce risk and uncertainty. So there hasn't been the investment in processing or proper distribution channels that there needs to be. And so you have that bottleneck in the value chain, you know, and I mean, you can also make analogies to how distributed processes are managing the property in Dubai. I don't want to get into that either. I you know, I think it's obvious that the capacity isn't really there. So if a lot of that risk and uncertainty comes from regulations and the confusion that they create and you know, how many major capital investors are waiting. You get into the Hemp industry because they're not. What is this d.r box relations stuff in total THC? Am I going to get arrested? Is my plan going to be shut down? You know, I didn't have time to understand these details.
Herrick Fox: [00:46:31] Of course, folks like you need to get down on four hour officials and regulators don't have time either. It's me. It's been made way too complicated, mom. And so, you know, that's where the interface between policy and regulation and the value chain comes into play. You know, not only does it need to be investment to increase capacity, but you've got to you've got to reduce the risk and uncertainty supply. The capital will come in, too. I mean, we all know how there's a huge, you know, beverage manufacturers and food producers, you know, are chomping at the bit to get in. Some of them are getting in a little bit, you know, but but it's you know, that that's a real problem.
Herrick Fox: [00:47:08] And that's that's something that regulation, first and foremost, getting the right regulations in can help. And then particularly on the fiber side, in the desktop, plastics and some serious Annabel's build that infrastructure, man.
Joy Beckerman: [00:47:24] We are so lucky to have you, Rick, fighting the fight saw this incredible plant, just the kind of guy or gal we need. And I can't thank you enough, clearly, as long as you'll have us. We can't wait to have you back on the Hemp Barons show very, very much looking forward to the announcements that are going to be coming from the USDA.
Joy Beckerman: [00:47:47] And again, thank you so much just for your solidarity and your leadership in that ongoing dialog slash struggle. And folks, please, you can go to our Web site, find Hemp Barons at the MJ MJBulls.com Web site. Our podcast is located there. And you'll be able to learn all about, Rick, how to get in touch with them, how to check out Mary's STEM farms and so forth. Rick, it's really an honor and a pleasure to have you on. Brother, thank you so much again.
Herrick Fox: [00:48:19] My pleasure. Thank you very much, Joy.
Joy Beckerman: [00:48:22] Good health and security follow you through the rest of this endeavor that we're it, brother. And we'll have you on again.
Herrick Fox: [00:48:29] Fantastic.
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